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What does that cut score mean? - Dana - 05-02-2012 05:27 AM

Thank you Mike, for the info and Mary for the suggestion of making it a sticky:

Objective Assessments: Setting Cut Scores


What is the procedure for setting cut scores?
Have you ever suspected that having 70% equivalent to a C, 80% equivalent to a B, and 90% equivalent to an A is not fair? Some tests are harder than others. Therefore, setting a rigid standard of this sort is usually not fair.

Test questions (items) on a given topic can be written at many levels of difficulty. For example, a subject matter expert could write a question on the U.S. Constitution that is so easy anybody would get it right. Conversely, the subject matter expert can write another question on the same topic on a different assessment that even Supreme Court justices would have trouble answering correctly.

Setting the cut (passing) score for each assessment at 70% in both of these cases would be unfair because one assessment has harder questions. Therefore, WGU needs a way to determine how hard the test items really are and a process for computing the proper cut score from these test item difficulties. This is the purpose of the Angoff procedure.

What is the modified Angoff procedure?
WGU uses the Modified Angoff procedure for setting cut (passing) scores for objective assessments, which provides a fair and legally defensible approach to setting scores. The Angoff procedure is a method for determining the difficulty of test items followed by a process for computing the exact passing score that is fair for each assessment.

WGU gathers a group of subject matter experts who know both the content of the assessment and a little about our students. These experts judge the difficulty of the test items based on how a group of 100 candidates (students) might perform. WGU then computes the average difficulty rating from the group for each of the test items. Finally, those item difficulty values are used to compute a cut score for each assessment. For example, if an assessment contains several difficult questions, the cut score might be set around 50%–60%. Conversely, if an assessment contains easier items, the cut score might be set above 80%.

What does this mean?

The cut (passing) score for each assessment is fair. It takes into account the difficulty of the test items and only requires students to achieve competency
Each version of an assessment (called forms) will contain different test items. A cut score is computed each time a new form is created to ensure fairness across versions of the assessments. WGU tries to balance the difficulty of items on each assessment form.

An assessment with a cut score of 55% is not any easier or harder to pass than another exam with a cut score of 85%. Both exams require students to achieve a score considered by experts to be at the level of competence.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - XanderMom - 05-06-2012 04:50 AM

(05-02-2012 05:27 AM)Dana Wrote:  Thank you Mike, for the info and Mary for the suggestion of making it a sticky:

Objective Assessments: Setting Cut Scores


What is the procedure for setting cut scores?
Have you ever suspected that having 70% equivalent to a C, 80% equivalent to a B, and 90% equivalent to an A is not fair? Some tests are harder than others. Therefore, setting a rigid standard of this sort is usually not fair.

Test questions (items) on a given topic can be written at many levels of difficulty. For example, a subject matter expert could write a question on the U.S. Constitution that is so easy anybody would get it right. Conversely, the subject matter expert can write another question on the same topic on a different assessment that even Supreme Court justices would have trouble answering correctly.

Setting the cut (passing) score for each assessment at 70% in both of these cases would be unfair because one assessment has harder questions. Therefore, WGU needs a way to determine how hard the test items really are and a process for computing the proper cut score from these test item difficulties. This is the purpose of the Angoff procedure.

What is the modified Angoff procedure?
WGU uses the Modified Angoff procedure for setting cut (passing) scores for objective assessments, which provides a fair and legally defensible approach to setting scores. The Angoff procedure is a method for determining the difficulty of test items followed by a process for computing the exact passing score that is fair for each assessment.

WGU gathers a group of subject matter experts who know both the content of the assessment and a little about our students. These experts judge the difficulty of the test items based on how a group of 100 candidates (students) might perform. WGU then computes the average difficulty rating from the group for each of the test items. Finally, those item difficulty values are used to compute a cut score for each assessment. For example, if an assessment contains several difficult questions, the cut score might be set around 50%–60%. Conversely, if an assessment contains easier items, the cut score might be set above 80%.

What does this mean?

The cut (passing) score for each assessment is fair. It takes into account the difficulty of the test items and only requires students to achieve competency
Each version of an assessment (called forms) will contain different test items. A cut score is computed each time a new form is created to ensure fairness across versions of the assessments. WGU tries to balance the difficulty of items on each assessment form.

An assessment with a cut score of 55% is not any easier or harder to pass than another exam with a cut score of 85%. Both exams require students to achieve a score considered by experts to be at the level of competence.

Thank you, Dana. I was wondering why the cut scores are usually pretty low. Wondering, but didn't research. Now it makes sense. You are so helpful! lol
Thank you again Smile



RE: What does that cut score mean? - groove1 - 04-05-2014 05:49 AM

The argument against it is not the methodology; it is that is that competency level truly competent? For example, the first assessment - let's just call it a test; that's what it is regardless of semantics - I took at WGU had a cut score of 51%. I got 86% of the questions right on the pre-test with only reading about two of the seven chapters. I knew a little about the subject material but not a lot, but the two chapters I read made up enough of the test material for me to get 86% of the questions correct. Industry experts that teach these types of classes, such as Franklin Covey, would laugh at acing two of these chapters and that being considered "competent" in Organizational Behavior and Leadership. You don't even have to know about Leadership or Organizational Culture and you can still be considered competent in Organizational Behavior and Leadership. I wouldn't consider that "competent" in the subject material.

Ironically, after reading all of the material, I only got 65% of the questions right on the real test, but some of that was from environmental factors - such as my test being interrupted after I started it.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - John Tucker - 04-05-2014 06:47 AM

A cut score shouldn't be viewed similar to a percentage score. It's quite honestly difficult-to-impossible to determine how a grading team comes up with a cut score, as it's usually taken from a variety of different variables such as question difficulty, previous testing experiences, content specification and importance, etc.

WGU's objective exams are graded similar to how most professional certifications are, which is through a cut score. With the CPA Exam, we need a "75" on each of the four sections to pass and individuals who fail with a "60" or "70" constantly talk about how they just needed "5 or 10" more points to pass and it annoys me that these individuals don't understand the structure of the exam lol. If you didn't pass with the cut score, it's not that you missed by "1" point, it's that as an aggregate of the criterion used to confirm your competency, you didn't confirm "enough" competency. When you get a cut score of 75 and pass that section of the CPA Exam, that doesn't mean you got a C+ (75%) on the exam itself.

But yes, you could potentially pass a lot of WGU's Objective exams without studying that much if you pretty much already know the content material. Another way is if the content area is something basic, like Leadership, pretty much common sense can be used to answer most of those questions as anyone that's been in the workforce for more than 2 years should pretty much have a good understanding on basic Leadership concepts.

Do I agree with the cut score over the traditional grading system? Well, not really. The issue with the cut score is that you really have no idea what you got wrong per say, even though a report is shown with the general broad content areas that you were "weak" in, they really do very little to determine what you specifically missed and got correct. WGU could go into a point grading system, however, the drawback to this is that because you would know what you got wrong and right, you might not be able to just "take the test again" that easily with WGU. This might have WGU needing to add some sort of credit hour system.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 04-05-2014 09:00 AM

Er, the cut score is indeed the percentage of questions you need to get right to 'pass' the test.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - groove1 - 04-05-2014 09:34 AM

(04-05-2014 09:00 AM)ratbuddy Wrote:  Er, the cut score is indeed the percentage of questions you need to get right to 'pass' the test.

Thank you. And at 51%, monkeys throwing darts at the answers could consistently score higher. WGU would consider them competent. You really could guess at the answers and have a darn good shot at being considered competent, even if you did not know the first thing about the material. That is the real issue.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - John Tucker - 04-07-2014 03:01 PM

The issue here though, is that if you view the cut score in the same context of a traditional grading system, there's no way 51% out of 100 would be the equivalent of a "B" (80% out of 100), in which WGU sets as the equivalent benchmark in passing individuals. If WGU were passing individuals scoring an "E" on a test by passing that off as a "B", then WGU would lose it's regional accreditation in a heartbeat.

It's why you have to keep in mind that the competency model is not the same as the traditional grading system. The traditional grading system wants to confirm you can memorize and regurgitate the content, the competency based grading system wants to confirm you can actually directly apply the content in the workplace. In both systems, you're graded much differently. It's why I compared it to the CPA Exam because it's pretty similar. One of the reasons we have to take BEC is that CPAs should know how to directly apply the accounting rules and principles to any business work environment. On top of that, it's why each section not only includes multiple choice questions but actual simulations that require problems to be worked out that demonstrate competency of the content. Even with the multiple choice questions, they get harder as you get more correct, which means getting 60% of the hard questions correct carry more weight than getting 100% of the easy questions correct.

With the competency model you are grading how well the content can be applied and if the individual confirms they can "most likely" apply the content in the workplace "above average" then they pass. WGU rounds up experts in the subject matter to determine which questions to put on the Objective exams including their level of difficulty. They creates rules such as if a person scores above "this minimal cut-off," then we will consider them "competent" enough to where if they stepped into the workforce tomorrow to perform these duties they should be performing above average work.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 04-07-2014 03:33 PM

Sure, it's on a curve decided by the content experts, but individual score still ranges from 0-100% depending how you do on the exam. It's not like the maximum score is any less than 'perfect.'


RE: What does that cut score mean? - groove1 - 04-24-2014 10:59 AM

Ratbuddy is right. If you got every question correct, it would still be 100% in the traditional percentage or "for every hundred" context. Another issue I have already learned and what WGU actually teaches themselves is that people work much harder and learn more when a grade is at stake. With WGU's setup, you will do enough to pass, but not necessarily enough to earn a traditional A. This was taught in the first class I took at WGU yet they do not practice it.

Think about this. You go on a job interview and are up against somebody with similar qualifications, personality, and work ethic. The deciding factor is education. The other person has a resume with a 4.0 GPA from another accredited university. You have a degree from WGU which only shows that you are "competent". Who do you really think is going to get the job? Competency means enough to do it, but not necessarily enough to do it well.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 04-24-2014 02:05 PM

(04-24-2014 10:59 AM)groove1 Wrote:  Ratbuddy is right. If you got every question correct, it would still be 100% in the traditional percentage or "for every hundred" context. Another issue I have already learned and what WGU actually teaches themselves is that people work much harder and learn more when a grade is at stake. With WGU's setup, you will do enough to pass, but not necessarily enough to earn a traditional A. This was taught in the first class I took at WGU yet they do not practice it.

Think about this. You go on a job interview and are up against somebody with similar qualifications, personality, and work ethic. The deciding factor is education. The other person has a resume with a 4.0 GPA from another accredited university. You have a degree from WGU which only shows that you are "competent". Who do you really think is going to get the job? Competency means enough to do it, but not necessarily enough to do it well.

And you can get a degree from Harvard with a 3.0 by getting 2.0 in all your hard classes and 4.0 in electives. What is your point?

Again, if the experts out there are taking the test and they are only getting 57 on the test, then how do you expect a school to make their students get a 80 on that same test?

So basically you would prefer they increase the cut scores but throw in a bunch of 5th grade softball questions which does no one any good.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 04-24-2014 02:13 PM

(04-24-2014 10:59 AM)groove1 Wrote:  Think about this. You go on a job interview and are up against somebody with similar qualifications, personality, and work ethic. The deciding factor is education.

That's an edge case. If my degree from WGU gets me an interview, great, that's all I can ask for. It's up to me to talk my way into the job.

If my identical clone who went to MIT is there, screw it, he'll probably do a better job (and command a higher salary) than me anyway.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 04-25-2014 06:33 AM

(04-24-2014 02:13 PM)ratbuddy Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 10:59 AM)groove1 Wrote:  Think about this. You go on a job interview and are up against somebody with similar qualifications, personality, and work ethic. The deciding factor is education.

That's an edge case. If my degree from WGU gets me an interview, great, that's all I can ask for. It's up to me to talk my way into the job.

If my identical clone who went to MIT is there, screw it, he'll probably do a better job (and command a higher salary) than me anyway.

And sometimes having the WGU degree becomes the best positive you could ask for. While ethically wrong, the company might hire you at $60k because the other guy is going to command $80k all because of where he went to school.

You get employed, he gets to go to the next interview knowing his 3.78 was higher than your competency... you can't eat a GPA.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - John Tucker - 04-25-2014 06:35 AM

Well, from what I understand and have experienced, once you have actual relevant and quality work experience, combined with relevant education from a regionally (and respected) accredited college, the brand name of the degree means less than the complete "package". Here's the complete package:

- You fit everything on the generic job description in terms of relevant work experience, quality previous performance and relevant education.

- You can relatively present yourself in a professional manner by telephone, by email and in person.

- You have mastered the art of the political networking game to gain a personal touch with those in charge of the hiring decisions over others who are "soliciting" them for a position that fit the above portions of the "package".

What I find with today's college students and working professionals, we put WAY too much emphasis on the "education" portion in terms of having a degree and trying to go to the most expensive and well-known college we can find, over ALL of the other aspects. Some professionals believe their brand name degree can get them a solid position without any work experience AT ALL.

Then some professionals believe that they can effectively win in the professional job market without playing the art of the political networking game. What do I mean by the political networking game? Well, despite what people believe, the reason individuals go to the brand name colleges and ranked institutions is for the NETWORK. Where if I went to school with Larry Jr., the son of Larry Sr., the Head of XYZ Bank's Commercial Lending Department, then my personal connection with Larry Jr. can get me an interview with his Father for their Commercial Sales Division. Larry's Father not only provides an interview but confirms my relevant work experience, education and professionalism, and gets me IN the position (or at least damn near close to IN) over others that Larry Sr. nor Larry Jr. doesn't know but who also fit the generic broad job description criterion.

In 2014, you do not have to go to a brand name college to play this political networking game. Your degree just needs to be from a regionally accredited college that's respected. What you need to do is setup a LinkedIn profile, join the LinkedIn groups, and attend every local, state and national relevant business group, convention and conference you can to meet individuals and network with them. There you go. You have a network of individuals that you know within the area you are looking to work that can keep you up to date on the new positions, etc. or at least help you get to the final stages of interviews "at least" for relevant positions. Also you would make sure you are on every relevant recruiter's list as well.

You would be surprised how many people ARE NOT playing this political networking game and are lost in the maze, blaming everybody from Obama to Bush to Clinton for why they are unemployed with a stack of degrees.

There will never be TWO IDENTICAL job candidates unless one guy is cloned using robotic sources. Stop believing that hype. That's just a marketing ploy that colleges use to try and "justify" choosing their overpriced college over other lower priced alternatives, selling you that their brand name college is going to get you a position over someone else lol. That's the biggest misconception in the job market today.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - groove1 - 04-25-2014 11:50 AM

(04-24-2014 02:05 PM)King Aires Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 10:59 AM)groove1 Wrote:  Ratbuddy is right. If you got every question correct, it would still be 100% in the traditional percentage or "for every hundred" context. Another issue I have already learned and what WGU actually teaches themselves is that people work much harder and learn more when a grade is at stake. With WGU's setup, you will do enough to pass, but not necessarily enough to earn a traditional A. This was taught in the first class I took at WGU yet they do not practice it.

Think about this. You go on a job interview and are up against somebody with similar qualifications, personality, and work ethic. The deciding factor is education. The other person has a resume with a 4.0 GPA from another accredited university. You have a degree from WGU which only shows that you are "competent". Who do you really think is going to get the job? Competency means enough to do it, but not necessarily enough to do it well.

And you can get a degree from Harvard with a 3.0 by getting 2.0 in all your hard classes and 4.0 in electives. What is your point?

Again, if the experts out there are taking the test and they are only getting 57 on the test, then how do you expect a school to make their students get a 80 on that same test?

So basically you would prefer they increase the cut scores but throw in a bunch of 5th grade softball questions which does no one any good.

No, you are wrong. I would prefer that WGU's standards mean something more than just "competent." If someone passes the test with a 51% cut score by getting 51%, they are considered the same as someone who passed the same test with a 90%. And if you say that the scores don't matter much, then you are going against the methodology that WGU uses. According to you and everyone else, WGU is the institution that uses 5th grade softball questions (some are easy; some are hard). Really? You're earning a degree. Any dolt can tell you what government entity handles discrimination complaints, but WGU puts it on a test. That is a 5th grade softball question that I haven't even seen at a two year community college.

Like I said, a monkey throwing darts could easily get 51%, even considering the methodology. I took a pre-test before I started a class where I didn't know much of the material, so I guessed just to see the results. My result was 60% and the cut score was 52%. WGU considers me competent even though I didn't know anything about the material, just like they would the hypothetical dart-throwing monkey.

I have one more chance to take that pre-test, and I just may do so and pull the letters A,B,C, and D, out of hat to see how well I do. With such a low cut score my odds are good, whereas on a traditional test, getting a passing grade would require me to at least get seven out of every ten questions correct. It's difficult to guess and pass with that percentage. Everyone of those questions could also be difficult instead of some being easy and some being hard. I went to three schools before WGU, and believe me, teachers don't usually put easy questions on tests. This is especially true in most 200 and higher level glasses or in majors such as engineering or physics. There aren't any 5th grade softball questions on those tests, believe me. So instead of WGU using the model with level of difficulty, why isn't everything difficult?
(04-25-2014 06:35 AM)John Tucker Wrote:  Well, from what I understand and have experienced, once you have actual relevant and quality work experience, combined with relevant education from a regionally (and respected) accredited college, the brand name of the degree means less than the complete "package". Here's the complete package:

- You fit everything on the generic job description in terms of relevant work experience, quality previous performance and relevant education.

- You can relatively present yourself in a professional manner by telephone, by email and in person.

- You have mastered the art of the political networking game to gain a personal touch with those in charge of the hiring decisions over others who are "soliciting" them for a position that fit the above portions of the "package".

What I find with today's college students and working professionals, we put WAY too much emphasis on the "education" portion in terms of having a degree and trying to go to the most expensive and well-known college we can find, over ALL of the other aspects. Some professionals believe their brand name degree can get them a solid position without any work experience AT ALL.

Then some professionals believe that they can effectively win in the professional job market without playing the art of the political networking game. What do I mean by the political networking game? Well, despite what people believe, the reason individuals go to the brand name colleges and ranked institutions is for the NETWORK. Where if I went to school with Larry Jr., the son of Larry Sr., the Head of XYZ Bank's Commercial Lending Department, then my personal connection with Larry Jr. can get me an interview with his Father for their Commercial Sales Division. Larry's Father not only provides an interview but confirms my relevant work experience, education and professionalism, and gets me IN the position (or at least damn near close to IN) over others that Larry Sr. nor Larry Jr. doesn't know but who also fit the generic broad job description criterion.

In 2014, you do not have to go to a brand name college to play this political networking game. Your degree just needs to be from a regionally accredited college that's respected. What you need to do is setup a LinkedIn profile, join the LinkedIn groups, and attend every local, state and national relevant business group, convention and conference you can to meet individuals and network with them. There you go. You have a network of individuals that you know within the area you are looking to work that can keep you up to date on the new positions, etc. or at least help you get to the final stages of interviews "at least" for relevant positions. Also you would make sure you are on every relevant recruiter's list as well.

You would be surprised how many people ARE NOT playing this political networking game and are lost in the maze, blaming everybody from Obama to Bush to Clinton for why they are unemployed with a stack of degrees.

There will never be TWO IDENTICAL job candidates unless one guy is cloned using robotic sources. Stop believing that hype. That's just a marketing ploy that colleges use to try and "justify" choosing their overpriced college over other lower priced alternatives, selling you that their brand name college is going to get you a position over someone else lol. That's the biggest misconception in the job market today.

Networking will only get you so far. I have referred several of people to my company over the years but only two of them been hired. Both of them have been stellar employees. But one has a Masters Degree and she would not have gotten her job without it. The other has a Bachelor's Degree, but she may have gotten her job without that.

Since the two people I have referred have worked out well, I have a good reputation now for bringing in people. But they still have to have the qualifications for the position.

The school I went to before WGU was a very well-respected school in the southeast with a very reputable business program. If I went on a job interview anywhere in the region with a degree from that institution, it would almost guarantee me a job (we have a lot of graduates from their at our company). I know my company and every other major business in the area, including every big bank, would take that degree over a "competent" degree from WGU. And every company would pay that candidate the 80k over 60k because their graduates have proven themselves time and time again. There's no marketing ploy there, but you can definitely believe that conspiracy theory if you want. Again, a degree from an institution where almost every graduate has proven themselves and pay them a little bit more or someone who is competent and pay them a lot less? Human Resources are like anything else. You get what you pay for. Just because someone is hired because they wanted less money doest;t mean they are going to be proficient (but thay may be competent).


RE: What does that cut score mean? - John Tucker - 04-25-2014 06:40 PM

groove,

Well, what would you prefer the WGU Objective grading system be based on? If not competency, then what? I'm not sure which degree program you are completing or completed with WGU, but I know that the business degrees are pretty much basic common sense stuff once you have a grasp of the content knowledge. Those Accounting courses gave me a run for my money though like they would have at any college.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - groove1 - 04-25-2014 10:09 PM

(04-24-2014 02:05 PM)King Aires Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 10:59 AM)groove1 Wrote:  Ratbuddy is right. If you got every question correct, it would still be 100% in the traditional percentage or "for every hundred" context. Another issue I have already learned and what WGU actually teaches themselves is that people work much harder and learn more when a grade is at stake. With WGU's setup, you will do enough to pass, but not necessarily enough to earn a traditional A. This was taught in the first class I took at WGU yet they do not practice it.

Think about this. You go on a job interview and are up against somebody with similar qualifications, personality, and work ethic. The deciding factor is education. The other person has a resume with a 4.0 GPA from another accredited university. You have a degree from WGU which only shows that you are "competent". Who do you really think is going to get the job? Competency means enough to do it, but not necessarily enough to do it well.

And you can get a degree from Harvard with a 3.0 by getting 2.0 in all your hard classes and 4.0 in electives. What is your point?

Again, if the experts out there are taking the test and they are only getting 57 on the test, then how do you expect a school to make their students get a 80 on that same test?

So basically you would prefer they increase the cut scores but throw in a bunch of 5th grade softball questions which does no one any good.

The math with your GPA argument only works if half of the classes are electives. There is no school that offers that, whether it's Harvard or a community college. Typically electives are about 15-20% of a course load, so getting an a in all of them and a C in your program of study isn't going to give you a 3.0 Nice try though.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 04-25-2014 10:14 PM

(04-25-2014 10:09 PM)groove1 Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 02:05 PM)King Aires Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 10:59 AM)groove1 Wrote:  Ratbuddy is right. If you got every question correct, it would still be 100% in the traditional percentage or "for every hundred" context. Another issue I have already learned and what WGU actually teaches themselves is that people work much harder and learn more when a grade is at stake. With WGU's setup, you will do enough to pass, but not necessarily enough to earn a traditional A. This was taught in the first class I took at WGU yet they do not practice it.

Think about this. You go on a job interview and are up against somebody with similar qualifications, personality, and work ethic. The deciding factor is education. The other person has a resume with a 4.0 GPA from another accredited university. You have a degree from WGU which only shows that you are "competent". Who do you really think is going to get the job? Competency means enough to do it, but not necessarily enough to do it well.

And you can get a degree from Harvard with a 3.0 by getting 2.0 in all your hard classes and 4.0 in electives. What is your point?

Again, if the experts out there are taking the test and they are only getting 57 on the test, then how do you expect a school to make their students get a 80 on that same test?

So basically you would prefer they increase the cut scores but throw in a bunch of 5th grade softball questions which does no one any good.

The math with your GPA argument only works if half of the classes are electives. There is no school that offers that, whether it's Harvard or a community college. Typically electives are about 15-20% of a course load, so getting an a in all of them and a C in your program of study isn't going to give you a 3.0 Nice try though.

You are right... more than half of your classes will be non-degree related. When I was going to Oakland University to try and finish my accounting degree I had an entire term of Anthropology, Geography, Social Economics.

So, yeah.

But regardless, I still don't think you ever answered the question. How many ACTUAL DEGREE SPECIFIC COURSES have cut scores under 60?

(60 is a pass at every school by the way)


RE: What does that cut score mean? - pocketwgudev - 04-26-2014 01:15 AM

(04-25-2014 11:50 AM)groove1 Wrote:  Like I said, a monkey throwing darts could easily get 51%, even considering the methodology.
I know is this simply hyperbole, but the WGU statistics course, at least the one I took, will demonstrate that this is highly unlikely. :-)

To King's comment, I'd point out that I was in the BSIT-Software program, and while the statistics course may or may not have been essential to an understanding of software development, it was, nonetheless, degree-specific. So were the courses I took in language, social science, and even art history. These are all degree-specific courses. The degree is a Bachelor of Science, which at any regionally accredited university will include core courses in language, social, cultural, and numeric literacy. This is, in fact, a key factor in receiving accreditation to offer a BS or BA degree. There should be a difference between receiving certs and skills training at a trade school, and receiving a Bachelor's degree. This is large part of that difference.

Part of the discussion on this thread seems to suggest that some of the pre-tests are "too easy" or contain a lot of questions that are simple to guess at. I would offer that for a reasonably engaged person of a certain age, especially one who attended a decent high school, this is exactly as it should be. An undergrad degree is not designed to confer "expert" status on anyone, that's what grad school and work experience are for. It is intended to demonstrate a level of broad competence and capacity for reasoning that allow the individual to function in work or grad school. If you are 10+ years out of high school, and have worked in the real world during that time, it stands to reason that you have gained substantial knowledge and capability. You should have some "common sense", and this is what makes many questions seem easy. Many of them would not be easy for an 18 year old. Further, I mentioned a "decent high school" above: if your were fortunate enough to have attended a good one, it is highly likely that you have already been exposed to undergrad-level material at that time.

To me, the salient point that was raised in this discussion was the question of grades and their value during and after the degree. I am of the opinion that if WGU allowed students to receive an "A" (by demonstrating performance substantially above the defined "B" competency level) that this would be an incentive for some students to study and work harder. Once you have a degree, the GPA may matter to some prospective employers (not all) and will matter to most grad schools. That said, I would not support changing WGU's focus on competency-based instruction and assessment, this is central to what makes WGU a great choice for motivated, adult learners.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 04-26-2014 01:23 AM

Hmmm. I think folks see X% as a grade equivalent. For example, a 75% = C for WGU. But it does not work that way. The cut score is simply the competency required to pass. Nothing more and nothing less.

As pointed out prior, none of the classes are equal. For example, I'd rather have needed to cut a score above 95% in an exam than to have taken WGU's Global Econ ever again, lol.

Well, anyways. I answered the OP's question. That is what a cut score means. It is not a grade. Again, i think people have a difficult time when they have grown up in a specific system. Our minds attempt to equate everything else into that system. Well, this is not that system. A cut score, however, is a part of WGU's competency system.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 04-26-2014 01:33 AM

Just to add: https://college.harvard.edu/academics/planning-your-degree/graduation-requirements

from their own website, 40% of your courses are degree specific. 30% are required for all students and 30% electives.

So, yes, gen ed + electives you could get 3.0 in Gen and 4.0 in basket weaving and 2.0 in your economics classes and business and end up with a 3.0

Grades are fine for what they are, but even at Harvard getting a 50% on an exam could mean a C+ if the curve is set low. Every school curves.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 04-26-2014 02:18 AM

I did want to address one thing, which is the thought of the "traditional grading system" being the best, because they feel people work harder for that most gold of gold stars. Think of the effects that has on our society, and possibly even the business scenarios we are currently knee-deep in.

Before this ideal is even accepted as the valid ideal, think about it further.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - John Tucker - 04-26-2014 04:23 AM

Another thing to add to this is guys let's face it, in general college as a whole has been dumbed down across the board that when you are talking about an undergraduate degree such as "Business Management," most of the things you are learning are just basic common sense. This is especially true if you are coming into the program with 3 years of consulting experience already, you basically already know all of the common sense areas until you get into the harder aspects like the math, finance and accounting.

It's why I believe college as a whole is overpriced, the reason being is that until you get into the STEM subjects around any aspect of science, IT, engineering and math, everything else is either basic common sense or regurgitation.

Just like the MBA as a whole, not just at WGU but across the board, it's just basic common sense stuff if you have been involved in just about any type of business consulting position over the last 3 years. Just look across LinkedIn Groups or just Google how other professionals who have an MBA from all sorts of colleges think about the degree in a generic sense. I loved this book on this topic: http://www.thembabubble.com/


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 04-26-2014 06:23 AM

Yes and no.

When I was an the inventory and sales manager for my prior occupation, I mirrored everything the GM, which is the highest possible in the field I worked in, did. So, yes, I knew a lot of the common sense stuff going in. What WGU helped to do, at least for me, was give structure and relation to what I was doing. A business is an organization, and the sum of the education really helps organize our thought into organized business.

By the way, I do find it really disrespectful to others to say that finance and accounting are top tier difficulty in critical thinking. I do not mean to be rude. I tend to read it a lot here. Try logistics for a week at a job. Its migraine-inducing for anyone. The details that go into planning products, people, time, departments, etc. is a pretty broad spectrum of details to work with. I am sure the list goes on in other fields of business that I am less familiar with. More, I worked with dynamic inventory, so every day and week was unpredictable. I loved it. Some would loathe it. Business is very broad, and a lot of businesses have very different needs. We all have different paths to take from WGU.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 04-26-2014 09:45 AM

(04-26-2014 06:23 AM)Jadae Wrote:  By the way, I do find it really disrespectful to others to say that finance and accounting are top tier difficulty in critical thinking.

I don't think anyone would claim that. Finance and accounting are about as far from critical thinking as you can get. Learn the rules, and plug in the numbers, simple as can be. Dreadfully boring, IMHO.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 04-26-2014 11:30 AM

(04-26-2014 09:45 AM)ratbuddy Wrote:  
(04-26-2014 06:23 AM)Jadae Wrote:  By the way, I do find it really disrespectful to others to say that finance and accounting are top tier difficulty in critical thinking.

I don't think anyone would claim that. Finance and accounting are about as far from critical thinking as you can get. Learn the rules, and plug in the numbers, simple as can be. Dreadfully boring, IMHO.

If you think accounting and finance are about plugging in number then god help you.

To be an accountant and not just a bookkeeper you need to be able to explain how and why the numbers are what they are, ways to correct them and when something doesn't add up where to look in order to fix the errors.

Accountants are the first and last step in business operations. We are the guys who says it will make money and you have enough capital so start the project, we are the ones who then evaluates the financial success, pays the taxes and determines whether the project ends or continues.

Very off-topic. Let's get back on grading.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - John Tucker - 04-26-2014 12:27 PM

Yes, The King is right (as always lol). Accounting and Finance are not easy majors by a long shot. Supply Chain related and Engineering related majors aren't easy either, all of these areas would fall under the STEM related field areas that I would consider to be excellent major/study areas.

Here's a great link for the STEM majors: http://www.onetonline.org/find/stem?t=0


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 04-26-2014 01:36 PM

(04-26-2014 09:45 AM)ratbuddy Wrote:  
(04-26-2014 06:23 AM)Jadae Wrote:  By the way, I do find it really disrespectful to others to say that finance and accounting are top tier difficulty in critical thinking.

I don't think anyone would claim that. Finance and accounting are about as far from critical thinking as you can get. Learn the rules, and plug in the numbers, simple as can be. Dreadfully boring, IMHO.

I imagine there are fields of complexity, which is my point. I brought this up because I see a pattern of downplaying what is not in our personal path. I had hoped that this forum respected one another's path. I am not going to downplay any career path or education choice, and thus any individual's choices here, of any of you for not knowing scientific names, for example.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 04-27-2014 01:09 AM

(04-26-2014 01:36 PM)Jadae Wrote:  
(04-26-2014 09:45 AM)ratbuddy Wrote:  
(04-26-2014 06:23 AM)Jadae Wrote:  By the way, I do find it really disrespectful to others to say that finance and accounting are top tier difficulty in critical thinking.

I don't think anyone would claim that. Finance and accounting are about as far from critical thinking as you can get. Learn the rules, and plug in the numbers, simple as can be. Dreadfully boring, IMHO.

I imagine there are fields of complexity, which is my point. I brought this up because I see a pattern of downplaying what is not in our personal path. I had hoped that this forum respected one another's path. I am not going to downplay any career path or education choice, and thus any individual's choices here, of any of you for not knowing scientific names, for example.

No not at all. Every field of study has its pluses and minuses. My mother is a nurse and has the added task of being the nurse manager. I could probably memorize all those health terms but analyzing them is different.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 04-27-2014 03:34 AM

(04-27-2014 01:09 AM)King Aires Wrote:  
(04-26-2014 01:36 PM)Jadae Wrote:  
(04-26-2014 09:45 AM)ratbuddy Wrote:  
(04-26-2014 06:23 AM)Jadae Wrote:  By the way, I do find it really disrespectful to others to say that finance and accounting are top tier difficulty in critical thinking.

I don't think anyone would claim that. Finance and accounting are about as far from critical thinking as you can get. Learn the rules, and plug in the numbers, simple as can be. Dreadfully boring, IMHO.

I imagine there are fields of complexity, which is my point. I brought this up because I see a pattern of downplaying what is not in our personal path. I had hoped that this forum respected one another's path. I am not going to downplay any career path or education choice, and thus any individual's choices here, of any of you for not knowing scientific names, for example.

No not at all. Every field of study has its pluses and minuses. My mother is a nurse and has the added task of being the nurse manager. I could probably memorize all those health terms but analyzing them is different.

Correct. Understanding is different than knowing.

Pray the system of the business any of you work for never shuts down. I spent an entire weekend doing logistics by hand, because the system for failed, and we had a $1M order for the entirely of Lowe's to be shipped by the following Tuesday. Who knew using algebra would be so much "fun"? No degree type prepares one for that sort of "fun". Both knowledge and understanding are required. I am sure many of us have stories to tell.

And that is the thing about education and notions such as GPA. They do not really tell one whether or not that employee can adapt on the go. They usually do say something about commitment, however.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - groove1 - 05-02-2014 11:49 AM

(04-26-2014 01:33 AM)King Aires Wrote:  Just to add: https://college.harvard.edu/academics/planning-your-degree/graduation-requirements

from their own website, 40% of your courses are degree specific. 30% are required for all students and 30% electives.

So, yes, gen ed + electives you could get 3.0 in Gen and 4.0 in basket weaving and 2.0 in your economics classes and business and end up with a 3.0

Grades are fine for what they are, but even at Harvard getting a 50% on an exam could mean a C+ if the curve is set low. Every school curves.

The problem with this argument is that even Basket-Weaving would be a tough course at Harvard. They don't have the reputation they do for having easy basket-weaving courses. If you took basket-weaving at Harvard, you would be expected to make some damn good baskets, not simple baskets you could buy at Wal-mart. Everything is relative, but I highly doubt there are any easy classes at Harvard. If so, they would not be as respected as they are.
Regarding the non-degree specific courses, almost everyone has said they have taken these courses elsewhere. Guess what? If you started at WGU with no previous college experience, you would have to take them here too. Look at the list of classes that you have to take. These include courses such as geography, biology, humanities, and literature.

Not every school or class curves either. Wow there is so much information on this tread that is not true or at least dangerously skewed.

The main point is that with a 51% cut score, regardless of methodology, means that that the quality is low. This isn't Jeopardy where you get less credit for easy questions (same methodology); it's a college degree! The standards need to be set a little higher. Everyone on here seems to think that WGU is this perfect school and nothing they do is wrong, but there are definitely some issues with how they do things. Lay off the Kool-Aid, step back, and to use something mentioned in this thread, critically think about how some things are done at WGU. This is off-topic here, but along that line of thinking, change the mentoring process. You allegedly have to prove that you are self-motivated to be accepted, but they then force you to speak to a so-called mentor (not a real mentor) every week. That makes absolutely no sense:

A) If you are self-motivated, you don't need a mentor.
B) If you are self-motivated but did WANT a mentor, you would seek them out on your own.
C) Your mentor would be an expert in your subject and/or someone who has gone through the same experience as you, for example, attending WGU and/or has a degree in your subject matter.
D) Your mentor would not be a mentor as a way of paying their bills, nor would they be talking to 100 other proteges each week. They would be doing something related to their field and your major, not calling online college students every week.


I may sound negative, but I actually like a lot of what WGU offers and does. Still, they can definitely improve in some areas. Assessments and mentoring are two of them.

FWIW, we have a huge accounting department where I work, and you definitely have to think critically in that department, especially when you move up a level or two. There is more to it than just plugging numbers, especially in today's dynamic work environment where software and almost everything else changes regularly. And if you were to start from scratch at WGU, you would have to take a critical thinking course in just about any major. I have taken them at other schools and they have taught me to question some things, which is why I am questioning the validity of a 51% cut score and also WGU's definition of a "mentor."


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 05-02-2014 12:27 PM

Groove, I am only going to ask one more time and then I am going to lock this thread... Tell me about all these 51% cut score classes please. List them.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 05-02-2014 01:44 PM

He's right, a lot of the classes are way too easy.

[Image: swbzlyO.jpg]

CDC1 is close, cut score of 55%. There were others, I don't remember which though.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 05-02-2014 03:38 PM

(05-02-2014 01:44 PM)ratbuddy Wrote:  He's right, a lot of the classes are way too easy.

[Image: swbzlyO.jpg]

CDC1 is close, cut score of 55%. There were others, I don't remember which though.

Awesome, you just linked an "easy" class which has a cut score of 51... at any other college a 59 is a pass.

So you just proved that "easy" courses are held to a lower standard if all things were equal.

Next?


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 05-02-2014 03:50 PM

Dunno what you're trying to say. You asked what classes have a 51% cut score. That is one of them.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 05-02-2014 04:10 PM

(05-02-2014 11:49 AM)groove1 Wrote:  A) If you are self-motivated, you don't need a mentor.
B) If you are self-motivated but did WANT a mentor, you would seek them out on your own.
C) Your mentor would be an expert in your subject and/or someone who has gone through the same experience as you, for example, attending WGU and/or has a degree in your subject matter.
D) Your mentor would not be a mentor as a way of paying their bills, nor would they be talking to 100 other proteges each week. They would be doing something related to their field and your major, not calling online college students every week.

I have to disagree with you, stating personal preference. I did not *need* my mentor, but it kept it real to me, and I enjoyed the interaction. Also, not everyone has the moral support they need. One can push their self through, but that does not mean someone is there with them. And from my perspective, from one that believes in honoring their word, saying I plan and will do X, Y, and Z really helped set everything in stone.

So I do agree that no one "needs" a mentor, but I do think its quite worthwhile.

And that is what part of the traditional meaning of mentor is. It was someone who not only taught, but offered guidance and moral support.

I think moral support is becoming extremely undervalued in our current culture. I'm not even sure most people know what it actually means.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - John Tucker - 05-03-2014 12:11 AM

I guess with groove and rat they seem to keep linking 51% = equivalent of 51 out of 100, that's the only way I can justify being outraged at the cut score. As I mentioned prior, the way the calculations are done, based on WGU's standards, is equivalent to a "B" grade using the regular system. Now how does this break down per Objective exam? I would have to dig up more research on the individual courses to show that, but you guys keep equating 51% = 51 out of 100 correct or an "E" and that's just not what's going on here.

As I compared this to the CPA Exam, we have to score "75" and that does not equate a C+, there's a variety of different grading schemes that are added in that weigh one question having more points over another based on proposed level of difficulty, etc.

I'm not a person that doesn't criticize WGU, but groove and rat I think you guys aren't fully comprehending what the cut score grading procedure is based on. If it were based on how you guys are proposing it, WGU couldn't possibly ever pass anybody's regional accreditation standards.

Also as a side note, if you guys feel that the WGU grading policy or degree in and of itself will NOT assist you with your career goals, just transfer to another college? Or if you already completed the degree but still don't feel it's of value "enough," then complete a master's at another college? For most of us here and most of those attending WGU, the degree and the institution was "enough" for us to check off the box in terms of having XYZ degree(s).


RE: What does that cut score mean? - gamerwoman79 - 05-03-2014 12:40 AM

I've followed along with this thread and some really good points have been made. I decided to add my two cents worth, lol. I've taken four objective assessments during my first term as a student at WGU. The two that are considered general studies classes had cut scores of 66% and 50% and the two that are degree specific had cut scores of 59% and 67%. Now that being said I passed by more than 20 percentage points over the cut score on all of those classes except one where I was still 10 over the cut score. I would venture a guess that more students that go to WGU are like me, they are very comptetent in their content areas because they come in with experience of their field. In a traditional school, if you were grading me just from the final grade I would have an A,B, C, and a D (never in my life have I gotten a D) but what school gives a grade based solely on the final? No school, which is why WGU is so different. They don't grade the work we do while we are learning the material in order to take the final. I think that makes a big difference. When you have those grades that you get while being supported by learning resources (as we are when we are studying and working toward taking the tests) there is the guarrantee that if you aren't brain dead you are going to have good, or mostly good grades to average in if you bomb a test. With WGU there is no averaging, just proving that you know enough of the material to "pass" the class and be deemed competent.
One more thing that I believe some are not taking into account during this disscussion is how many objective courses are paired with a performance based class. On those (at least the ones I have taken so far) you have to turn in a perfect final product to pass. To me it is like taking a traditional class and breaking it into to parts, one part pedagogy and one part proving using your knowledge critically. Those two steps are designed to work together and when they are taken together I believe most of us can agree that they do establish competence in a given subject. Anyway I love that we are all able to debate and talk about this respectfully!


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 05-03-2014 12:58 AM

^ This, too.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 05-03-2014 02:03 AM

John, I don't think it's fair to say 'I disagree with you, therefore you don't understand what we're talking about.'

I understand full well what a cut score means. I just think they are set too low in certain classes. I don't care how low the average score is, people should not be able to completely ignore almost half the material in a class and still get a passing grade. That's exactly what a 51% cut score means: you only need to learn half the material.

Don't get me wrong, I'm taking full advantage of the system, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that WGU programs have the same academic rigor as a traditional big-name school. They aren't anywhere close. Heck, they aren't even close to Straighterline, at least in algebra.

My wife has been doing algebra on Straighterline, and it's night and day different from the WGU material. Wider and deeper, there are four quizzes and a final, any one of which is tougher than the WGU final. You need a 70% overall to pass, but it's 70% of tougher material. WGU has a cut score of 67% on algebra, but the final only has 39 questions, and being both simplistic, and multiple choice, it is easy to simply plug in all the possible answers to most questions and see which one is correct. Try doing that in a B&M algebra class.

That's just one example, there are plenty more to be found.

Don't get me wrong, I love WGU, and I'm learning a ton, but I don't have to be. I've scored 30+ points over cut score on numerous exams, but only because I actually went out of my way to do more than just pass. There is no such requirement, and if I wanted, I could skate closer to the cut score, but that wouldn't be doing myself any favors.

What can be done to fix the problem? Either dial back on the areas of competency and raise the cut score, or make the questions easier and raise the cut score. I don't know. I don't claim to be any kind of expert in the field, I have only my own experiences to go on, and my experience has been 'the tests are too easy.'

Another problem to consider is this: The lower the cut score gets, the better your chances of passing through luck. If the cut score was 25%, and every question was a four-option multiple choice, you would have a good chance of passing without knowing any of the material at all. As the cut score goes up, your chances of passing on luck alone go down, but not too fast. If you learn 25% of the material down cold, you only need to get 33% correct on the rest of the material in order to pass a class with a 50% cut score. Learn 50% of the material, and you'll pass on sheer luck, even if you get a few questions wrong on the 50% of the test you actually studied for. The lucky guesses on the other half of the test will make up for it.

The take away is this: The lower the cut score, the more luck influences the result, so difficulty should be adjusted by changing the questions, not changing the number of correct answers needed to pass.

Someone (groove?) said earlier that a monkey could pass WGU courses on sheer luck, and while obviously exaggerated, there is a grain of truth to the statement.

All that said, I've never been to a 'real' college, so I don't know if standards are this low in all of them, or just in lower tier schools like WGU. I don't really care. I'm going to earn an accredited degree, and that's all that matters. The fact that the bar is set so low is a bit disappointing, but that's not going to stop me from completing the program and earning my degree, and displaying it with pride.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - John Tucker - 05-03-2014 03:11 AM

rat,

But see that's not what a cut score means, a cut score of 51% is not 51% of the material, a cut score of 75 is not 75% of the material. Do not view WGU's Objective Exam as being graded the same as traditional grading policies, view them as being graded the same as most Professional Certifications graded based on competency. So let's look at how WGU and Certification grantors like CompTIA and the AICPA all handle these types of exams.

1.) In preparation, you are dumped massive amounts of content on the entire subject area. You are then expected to know EVERYTHING about the subject area, do practice testing, quizzes, etc. throughout your preparation.


2.) When you take the actual exam, WGU, CompTIA and the AICPA in this case would take a SLICE of the massive pile of content and place it on the exam.


3.) Now, the way they will grade the exam is through a matrix of having medium questions and difficult questions that were deemed "difficult or medium" based on prior testing candidates and on-the-job practitioners. From this information, the grading team sets a "cut score" of what a candidate must have to be deemed "competent" enough based upon this prior identified information so that when they go out into the field on the job they should be performing at or above the levels of their professional peers. What each question is worth in points is not revealed, what the grading team considers to be an "medium or difficult" question based on their research is also not revealed, most of the time the actual grading matrix is unknown.


This is not the same in a traditional grading setting, where you have 10 questions that are each worth 10 points so if you score 8 out of 10 correct you score 80% or a B-. You guys are viewing the WGU Objective exams as such and they are not graded along those same lines, they are graded just like most Professional Certifications are and that's using a "cut score" to confirm on-the-job competency.


Furthermore, in terms of quality standards between a WGU Competency Based System and a Traditional College Grading and Structural System, again...you are comparing apples to bananas.

1.) A traditional system is not based on taking one final exam and passing, a traditional system is based on showing up to the course's class 3 times a week give or take for 4 months and doing a bunch of busy work. Every 3 weeks or so you are given smaller tests based on the prior 3 weeks of busy work. Your final grade is not based on the final exam solely, it's also based on the entire 4 months of class participation, homework assignments and weekly quizzes.


2.) A competency based system is not graded, structured or tested on routine course procedures like a traditional system is. I would even venture to say a competency based system isn't like a traditional educational program AT ALL. It's just like studying for a certification, you are expected to learn the material or review the material on your OWN, and show up on testing day to take the final exam based on the cut score format of grading. If you pass you are certified or in WGU's case "competent," if you don't pass you have to try again.


Now, which system is of better quality? Well, I think it depends upon the individual's learning habits, the amount of experience/knowledge they come to the table with and the course itself.

If I'm an independent learner that's been in the workforce for 10 years, I don't need the traditional system, the competency based system works for ME. However, if I'm not an independent learner, just starting out my life (age 18-24) without any real work experience, I probably want the traditional system because the competency based system would leave me lost like a chicken with his head cut off.

So if WGU is not for you, then you should seek the institution that is. But we have to keep in mind the difference between the traditional grading system and the competency based system.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 05-03-2014 03:21 AM

Except that questions are not weighted. I've done the math, and the grade is not weighted in the slightest bit. It's a straight-up percentage of correct answers. The only thing the experts decide is what percent you need to get right. Getting all the easy questions right gives you exactly the same grade as getting the same number of hard questions right and missing the easy ones.

As far as giving broad material and testing you on a random selection, that's also a joke. The preassessments tell you exactly what is going to be asked on the final. So far, every single WGU exam I've taken has been nearly identical to the preassessments. If you pay enough attention, you'll know exactly what to study for the final and can ignore the rest.

edit: I just picked a class at random, TXC1, introduction to programming. It has a cut score of 66%, I scored 80%. I counted the points. I got 56, maximum of 70. There were 70 questions on the exam. 56/70 is .8, or 80%. Each question had the same value, it's a straight up percent-correct. No weighting. You can get ANY 47 questions correct and pass this exam. The cut score is 66%, which means 66% correct passes - it's not any more complicated than that.

I challenge anyone who disagrees to show me their coaching report for a WGU exam that shows weighting.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 05-03-2014 08:44 AM

*thumbs up for forums and pointless bickering* Tongue

Would it be fair to say that you are not grasping the concept that the majority of us are understanding? The combined sentiments are not required to be "if, then". If you are not grasping the specific concept, why?

Cut(-off) scores do not require the concept of weighted questions. In a logical frame, we are going into red herring fallacy territory.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 05-03-2014 09:35 AM

Jadae, if you're talking to me, I was specifically addressing John's 3.) which seems to imply that cut score is something other than a simple percent of correct answers required to pass.

That's all I'm saying, and I'll repeat it: cut score is the percent of answers correct that WGU requires to consider the class passed. Each question is worth one point, and (answers correct)/(total number of questions) determines your score. If your score is greater than or equal to the cut score, you pass.

I haven't seen anyone show any proof otherwise. If you are saying I'm incorrect, fine, how about explaining how you think it works?


RE: What does that cut score mean? - King Aires - 05-03-2014 11:43 AM

Look it is simple. If you get a 29 on your ACT that is 29 out of 36 correct? which is what? 80%

a 29 gets you into just about every school in the country. But how can a B- be so good? because the average score on an ACT is a 21... or a 58%

Does this mean that a 21 is a E? no a 21 would be considered a C since it is the average, the 29 would be considered an A.

WGU does the same thing, the average or median on the test is a 51, it gets a 51 cut score. Simple.

ACT isn't worthless is it? then neither is WGU's scoring method
(05-03-2014 09:35 AM)ratbuddy Wrote:  Jadae, if you're talking to me, I was specifically addressing John's 3.) which seems to imply that cut score is something other than a simple percent of correct answers required to pass.

That's all I'm saying, and I'll repeat it: cut score is the percent of answers correct that WGU requires to consider the class passed. Each question is worth one point, and (answers correct)/(total number of questions) determines your score. If your score is greater than or equal to the cut score, you pass.

I haven't seen anyone show any proof otherwise. If you are saying I'm incorrect, fine, how about explaining how you think it works?

So you are arguing two things of unintended consequence.

1) Cut scores are too low

2) Tests should be made easier so cut score can be raised

Either way, WGU isn't going to start failing thousands of students just to give you the perception the grades are worth more.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 05-03-2014 11:55 AM

(05-03-2014 09:35 AM)ratbuddy Wrote:  Jadae, if you're talking to me, I was specifically addressing John's 3.) which seems to imply that cut score is something other than a simple percent of correct answers required to pass.

That's all I'm saying, and I'll repeat it: cut score is the percent of answers correct that WGU requires to consider the class passed. Each question is worth one point, and (answers correct)/(total number of questions) determines your score. If your score is greater than or equal to the cut score, you pass.

I haven't seen anyone show any proof otherwise. If you are saying I'm incorrect, fine, how about explaining how you think it works?

The is the essential part, but then the needless tangents appeared. So, I guess, where is the disagreement? What is the argument?


RE: What does that cut score mean? - ratbuddy - 05-03-2014 11:57 AM

I know, just wishful thinking on my part. It just makes me let out a big sigh when I see people on the WGU communities who can barely put two words together. I guess they need degrees too Smile

edit: Was talking to King. As far as the disagreement, the only thing I disagree with is John when he says the scores aren't a straight percent-correct. I think someone else said the same thing, I can't remember if it was in this thread though.


RE: What does that cut score mean? - Jadae - 05-03-2014 12:51 PM

Okay, lol.

In all fairness, my FB personal conversations probably look like two people on LSD cracking jokes. Its my personal time to be as informal as I want, lol. However, I'd be afraid if that was another's work demeanor.